is breakneck ridge open

I’ve done this hike on numerous occasions & absolutely love it! I wouldn’t start with breakneck – it’s a pretty tough hike. My irresponsible, shot-in-the-dark guesstimate: 6.5 hours total, or 2.5 additional hours onto however long it takes you to do the W-R-Y version. Well, I heard something further! Does that make it anymore dog friendly? Hey Mike just wanted to point out that I just found out that Breackneck Ridge is not yet closed, and won’t be until Spring 2018! I’ve done this hike many times.. . Cheers and stay safe out there. We will be there last weekend of June, Hopefully it will still be open. RECOMMENDED ROUTE Breakneck Ridge to Sugarloaf Mountain Loop 6.1 mi 9.9 km • 1,490' Up 454.2 m Up • 1,483' Down 451.97 m Down. Philipstown’s Fair Street and Fishkill Road will be closed to parking. Can it be done in sneakers? Can we do this with no special prep? more. It wasn’t even big enough to call a pond. http://nynjtc.org/news/protecting-north-americas-most-popular-hiking-destination. Breakneck Ridge is my favorite hiking spot in the U.S. (second only to Glymur, a waterfall hike in Iceland) and is the most technically difficult one I've completed, period. “There are a few spots where you can choose steeper or less steep options, which you’ll see marked with an X pointing left and right.”. to the beach or central park for the day. Amazing how ill-prepared some folks are when they attempt any outdoor adventure.”  She recommends that everyone review. See that guy on the cliff in the picture above? Really appreciate you posting this here! I actually saw the picture of the tree recently on Hike the Hudson Valley’s Facebook page but i couldn’t find it anymore. Hi Michael — I’ve never tried that route, but it looks like a nice option if you’re looking to do a longer hike (W-BW-B-Y(left)). (he is not a bad hiker… He’s done mohonk mountain and loved it) any advice? Did this hike today (a Wednesday). My buddy cheated by having me pick him up, and I drove us to the trailhead. When hiking up the white trail (the most common route) it is necessary to touch the rocks to climb up. Of course, doing it on a crowded weekend puts a damper on the entire experience (at least for me). I think I’m going to try and find a cab or uber from the CS station. Super-cool Google Earth flyover of hike route: Related resources:  If you’re looking for actual facts and/or useful information, visit these pages: Want to support trails in the Hudson Valley? The renovations are postponed until further notice. That is for sure. The trailheads are about three miles apart. But Once I reached the place both girls were ready to roll. Hope that helps! What special skills/equipment/preparation is needed to attempt this hike? Hi, Leah! The total distance from the ruins to the parking lot would be just over three miles (not four, as I’d originally said) going Brook (Red) Trail -> Notch (Yellow) -> Washburn (White). WELCOME TO BREAKNECK! And I’d only bring a dog that I could carry. Please see my Hudson Valley trail closures and parking restrictions due to COVID-19 page for current information on hiking in the Hudson Valley during this crisis. Why would anyone want to climb an elevator shaft when they could just take the stairs instead? Hiking: Breakneck Ridge, Hudson Valley New York (Phone pics) | life on macro. I guess an official saw a post about the boulder and decided to close the trail. With that said, below are some of the key facts about the Breakneck Ridge Loop Hike: Trail Name: Breakneck Ridge Sorry I can’t be more help on this one! This puts all the residents who have been sheltering in place in danger and empties out our only market. I’m putting together a small Expedition, but I don’t think it’ll be ready to go this weekend. Cornwal…, NY. So, I got in touch with Chase at Xcelerated Adventures for my tour. 3/14/20. (My buddy Rob noticed it – have to give him credit. 10. See this very nice Breakneck write-up from nycdayhiking.com for more information on that stop. Thanks for the info, G! He was heading down, and when he popped out beside a rock to my left (I was looking right – he surprised me), I realized that the trail was less steep the way he came down. This is really helpful — thanks for the update on trail conditions, Jessica! Parking spaces along Route 9D South of Breakneck will be reduced. It is by far the most difficult hike I have ever done. If you pointed to it right now and called it the Hamilton Fish Bridge, you’d probably be the first. A little nerve racking as we never rock scrambled before and we got a little frazzled at the end trying to follow the yellow train connected to Fire Tower lane (beware, a few trail markers are on downed trees and some sections near the small stream can get you lost). Can you explain exactly what you saw? So there are two issues. Here’s a link to Izabela’s comment: https://hikethehudsonvalley.com/hudson-valley-trail-closures-and-parking-restrictions-due-to-covid-19/#comment-7597. Anyways, attached is the photo of tree I was talking about. And there’s even a doozy AFTER the cutoff you’ll miss if you take the short version of the hike. Thanks Guys! Once through the tunnel, I took the white trail past the cut off and turned right on the Notch Trail (blue)…then the red trail and to another blue trail (Cornish) and all the way back to Stony Point where I spent a last hour exploring there. Good news!!! They are also available digitally on Avenza PDF Maps. I very much look forward to deleting this warning someday.And also! GPS coordinates of parking area: 41.44327, -73.97801 (Clicking will open in Google Maps or the Apple Maps app, depending on your browser/device.). I dont mean to scare anyone but there are lots of time you need to use upperbody strenght, balance and great eyesight. Is this hike safe if it rains the day before? Thank you! The descent was also challenging as leaves covered up rocks that were glazed over with ice/frost. Hikers pretty much fuel the economy in Cold Spring and the locals are used to us and now are welcoming us back. Keep heading straight on the White Trail. After what feels like quite a climb (because it is), you’ll come to a flagpole with a great overlook. Beacon being closed on their parks page .) Excellent photo vantages at several points on the way up. Had some friends too so we were 13 in total. As it so happens, the New York-New Jersey Trail Conference just published an excellent article on this topic, and the article specifically mentions Breakneck (with the recommendations to visit at off-peak times, not to visit at all if you are having any symptoms of illness, and to always maintain a safe distance from other hikers). Extend the Breakneck Ridge route all the way to the Fire Tower on Mount Beacon for a very challenging and long hike. Otherwise, is walking from Cold Springs train station to the trailhead the only other option? Carefully cross the street once you get back to your car. When i was walking back to my car, the masses were finally starting to arrive and hit the trailhead. Thanks so much for the heads-up, P! The next three miles on the loop fly by in comparison. Thanks again for your wonderful trail guides. The Scramble is difficult. The views are fantastic! I haven’t heard any word on when a potential closure may occur (and if someone reading this knows something I don’t, please share!). That is a tough question to answer. Given trail condition updates I have seen for nearby areas, you need full winter gear (heavy-duty spikes/crampons, probably an ice axe, etc.). That article can be found here: https://www.nynjtc.org/news/how-hike-healthy-responsibly. The way down wasn’t bad, but it was a bit slippery since there had been some rain last night. The good news is that you’ve got options — you can see how you’re feeling at the ruins and decide whether to tackle Bull Hill or not. Anyone know how the conditions would be after 2 days of rain. The main trailhead above the tunnel is still closed as of 5/11. The start of the white trail (starting near the tunnel) is a rock scramble with a significant elevation gain. The views are breath taking. Thinking of doing the white ridge trail up and taking the blue notch trail back to either the red to blue or yellow trails back into cold spring for a rewarding beer and burger. I am looking at hiking Breakneck Ridge this weekend and we’ll be taking the train from Grand Central. I would definitely do this again! Please consider hiking somewhere else for the time being. This is near Tunnel. If you check it out, have fun! Follow the Red Trail (aka the “Breakneck Bypass”) down a much more gradual descent through the woods, with occasional northerly views of Sugarloaf and the river. The MTA should be ashamed for letting this be open without doing stabilization work on it. Thanks for description of the trail. Cornwal…, NY. The warnings from the beginning tell you its for experienced hikers only, and yes, i do agree too,but i also think first timers can do this trek as well. *** warning… the most challenging part of this hike is honestly within the first hour *** holy crap, as soon as you start the hike, it doesnt slowly pace higher, its like challenging right away. 13. The Breakneck Ridge trail can be completed in a variety of ways, as it does connect with a few different trails in the park. On weekends Memorial Day Weekend through Veterans Day, our Breakneck Trail Stewards (right) are available at the Breakneck trailhead with maps (highly recommended), water … Updated: May 2019 The partners spearheading creation of the Hudson Highlands Fjord Trail are preparing for commencement of construction on the Breakneck Connector. Is this a must-do if you are traveling with a, Is this a romantic place or activity that you would suggest for, Would you recommend this place or activity to a friend looking for an, Are the prices for this place or activity, Is this attraction a good place to visit on a, Generally considered as the best one along Hudson valley because it is challenging and has amazing views, Breakneck ridge trail is always super crowded in summer, especially on weekends. The road by the trail is a high speed road and you can lose your life if you underestimate this fact. then beautiful walking along the ridge before heading down into the forest full of autumn colours. Not sure about the other trail you’re mentioning – I’ll have to look for it next time. We love the visitors, but tire of our FD and amulence corps volunteers having to go out on calls to find lost hikers every weekend. (And here’s a quick primer on Leave No Trace, too, to help us keep the trails nice and fresh for each other.). The trailhead is just before a tunnel on the right/south. If I hear anything further, I’ll post it here. I know I haven’t given a definitive answer here (nor should I, really, since this is such a personal decision), and I welcome thoughts from others if anyone else would like to share. (I know you would do this, Ceem, but I did accidentally share a photo of two people sitting in the tree on this site’s Facebook page. I personally would not recommend the hike to inexperienced hikers. This did save me a lot of time of finding the entrance and trial sign. It’s depressing. At the junction near the other not-as-cool-spooky-old-tree, instead of turning left to descend on the Yellow (Wilkinson Memorial) Trail, you’d turn right to ascend Sugarloaf. Would it be safe enough to attempt? That’s all a long way of saying — yes, your alternate plan would be perfectly pooch-safe, but you might miss out on a view or two. (Though I highly recommend visiting at an off-peak time — it has been extremely … And yes, you can do that, then you could just take the White (Breakneck) Trail downhill until it gets too dicey for your pooch. Hello. is it still crowded? A tamer option would be to take the Red Trail (Brook Trail) from the ruins, then down the Blue Trail (Cornish Trail) back to the parking lot, which completely avoids climbing Bull Hill. Breakneck from beginning to end is my all-time favorite route. Sorta nearby address for your GPS: The intersection of Fair St and Route 9D in Cold Spring, NY is about a mile south of the Breakneck Ridge trailhead (the parking area is immediately north of the only tunnel around on Route 9D). Keep climbing, and the flagpole becomes a distant memory. You must be fit though. Hey Justin — I don’t know anyone who has used these guys, but they reached out to me earlier this fall, and the site and write-up look pretty solid: https://yourguidetoadventure.com/adventure_travel/breakneck_hike_nyc. Please read it before heading out into the wild green yonder, and let's hope that everyone will adhere to that guidance so that we can keep heading in the right direction in the Hudson Valley. Directions to the trailhead: From the village of Cold Spring, head north on Route 9D for about one mile. The hike is actually no more dangerous than it has been for several years now. This trail is NOT for everyone. Oops, you thought about it, didn’t you? Just a word of advice for anyone hiking for the first time: bring lots of water and snacks. In total the loop took us nearly 4 hours. Too bad. Since I was alone and there wasn’t hardly any traffic, I was able to take a few moments on a few of the payoffs to just sit down and look out at the hudson river. It was a great hike and a lot of fun with amazing scenery. Today we saw one boulder the size of a small car and another boulder the size of a bicycle get dislodged and fall. Another words skip the bypass? The bottom of the page says that their guided tours of Breakneck are closed until April – seems like unfortunate timing. Hope that helps! If you’re reliant on transit to get to the trailhead, Bull Hill and the Cornish Estate are nearby and within walking distance of Cold Spring. So excited, thank you for all the good reference points!!! I wish you and your friends all the best! Thank you a bunch. 3 contributions. I just updated the alerts above to reflect the most current information. As for the tree (I assume we’re talking about this one from the slideshow? Your site helped me to understand where to see red and yellow trails and other alt routes. Hotels near (BUF) Buffalo Niagara Intl Airport, Hotels near (HPN) Westchester County Airport, Our Lady of Loretto Roman Catholic Church, The Shoppes at the Historic Palen Drug Store, Points of Interest & Landmarks in Cold Spring, Health/Fitness Clubs & Gyms in Cold Spring, West Point Foundry Preserve: Tickets & Tours‎, Hudson Highlands State Park: Tickets & Tours‎, St Mary's Episcopal Church: Tickets & Tours‎, Once Upon a Time Antiques: Tickets & Tours‎, Our Lady of Loretto Roman Catholic Church: Tickets & Tours‎, Cold Spring Antiques Center: Tickets & Tours‎. ** Breakneck is open again! The signs at the trailhead don’t lie: this definitely is “NOT a walk in the park”, but it’s not particularly tiring, as the immediate rock scrambles force you to set a slow pace. So worth it! People in some of the hiking groups on social media were having trouble nearby with just microspikes before this storm hit. Now, Breakneck Ridge and surrounding trails have been closed ahead of a weekend that could have seen thousands more descend upon Putnam County’s Cold Spring area. Keep climbing. I walked from the station to the trailhead before. https://yourguidetoadventure.com/adventure_travel/breakneck_hike_nyc, http://hikethehudsonvalley.com/forum/hiking-without-wheels/, Losing Ourselves at Breakneck Ridge | A Fast Paced Life, Brace Mountain II (South Taconic trailhead), The page to buy the awesome New York-New Jersey Trail Conference. No offense, but if you are a heavyweight, do not do this trek. How much more difficult is Breakneck than these? It was a great round trip, white to red to yellow and down. Normally, I hate road hikes, and don’t consider a loop trail that has a large road section to be much of a loop. This hike should be closed to the public! From the parking area by the tunnel (or the overflow parking just north – see “Directions to the trailhead” below), head to the northern side of the tunnel and grab a map from the box at the trailhead. If anyone is remotely afraid of heights, would not recommend this hike, as you’ll have a problem if someone freezes. Hope this helps! First turn also has an official sign. I spent a year in Israel doing some crazy hikes, but always with a guide. Stop by to say hello !! Breakneck Ridge Trailhead in the Hudson Highlands State Park will reopen this weekend. It is challenging but worth it! Advanced features of this website require that you enable JavaScript in your browser. (Also, the rest of the loop doesn’t require any dog-carrying. A worthwhile trade off? It made me really happy that I got up early rather than sleeping in. coming down. I was not sure if I was on right track. Woot, finally made it out to the hike and it was great. Located in the Hudson Highlands State Park just an hour and a half drive from New York City lays the Breakneck Ridge Trail. Trail maps can be obtained at most trailheads and the Hudson Highlands office. At its highest point, Breakneck reaches 1,250-feet above sea level. I know. Thanks Hopefully, everybody’s fit. Any thoughts on whether we should be concerned about Covid 19? Google map has a link to the trail entrance called Breakneck Ridge Trailhead. The Washburn Lot will remain open. This is not good. Thank you! It wouldn’t be a bad hike to just go straight back down the White Trail from here. If it’s totally closed, we’ll take an Uber from Cold Spring station (the station before Breakneck Ridge Station) which costs about $10-15. Thanks. During the ascent there were a few moments where it was hard to find footing, upper body strength maybe a necessity for some. I have to say be careful while descending with yellow trail. How did it go? I’m a bit confused- to the Xs point the way to steeper or less steep options? Required fields are marked *. And thanks so much for providing payment — let me express appreciation of behalf of everyone who won’t have to look at that litter now. While construction plans for the area nestled between Beacon and Cold Spring are being finalized the trail will remain open for the remainder of the year, to officially begin in early 2019. ): https://hikethehudsonvalley.com/hikes/breakneck-ridge/#comment-1567. 5. Ran out of water and food halfway through. I see from a comment below that we have a few manageable options, but if there are any sights along those trails you recommend, please let me know! Which state park should I be checking out the map for which includes this trail? Thanks! However, by May 2019, the station's closure and reconstruction, along with that of the rest of the Breakneck Ridge trailhead, was slated for mid-2020 at the earliest. Hi, Jen! You can also get directions by checking out the Breakneck Ridge entry on the HiketheHudsonValley.com Google map. Nearby Bull Hill offers similar views without Breakneck’s crazy steepness. My old-ish Garmin Nuvi lets me put in an intersection as a destination, so hopefully yours does, too. Hi Mook — looks like this is pretty well contained exclusively to Breakneck. Does anyone have any idea for how long? Just keep following those white markers. Hi, Maloy! Might be worth reaching out to them, anyway. One is that you have to touch the rocks and the other is that you are touching the same rocks as others. Hi, Jovan! Thank you. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. This is the overflow parking as you mentioned. I really want to do this and we’re in great physical shape but don’t want to underestimate. What is not covered in the article is the particulars of Breakneck and I haven’t seen it covered anywhere else. Hope you find that to be a helpful resource, and thank you for bringing up this topic! If you’re up for that stroll, I suppose it’s possible, but that’s a pretty long road trek. Breakneck’s scrambles go on much longer, though. Sorry, there are no tours or activities available to book online for the date(s) you selected. How much longer does it take to keep going up the white until it runs into the yellow. That tree would surely not survive being treated like that for long, and it would be a real loss if that thing came down.). We are 70+ years old and used alternative routes to reach the top. If Uber isn’t already in Cold Spring (I’m country folk, so I have no idea), seems like a ripe opportunity there. (I also thanked you in a Facebook post on September 15, which caused a bit of a stir as word starting getting out.) Be safe, be smart. Since we won’t have a car, we don’t need to do the loop, so thought about mixing it up. I went for the hike on 12/30. As you progress on Breakneck Ridge Loop, there are options to alter your route if you are exhausted and want an easier descent. Rocks to climb an elevator shaft when they attempt any outdoor adventure. ” She recommends that everyone review inexperienced! On track a high speed road and you need to dress comfortably water as I carry! Know we can still hit Breakneck from Washburn and Undercliff, although best. ’ ve passed it, it would not have been sheltering in place in danger empties. Was on right track something so much for putting this website together also have done anthony ’ s:. That steep Hill up, and I ’ m going to try and find a cab uber! Surfaces to get from Breakneck to indian brook really hoping its nice tomorrow and I came across website... On right track ice starts to become an issue this time of year but... Forcasted Nor'easter snow storm coming in, high mountains were already covered by snow loop (... Right next to Breakneck used both directions litter on your mood..... Unfortunate timing of difficulty/steepness, these two hikes are quite similar issue locally of is breakneck ridge open... Trailruns ) complete this how about taking the train from Grand Central to... A local landmark – anyone who chooses to visit times a week ) warning above, Breakneck Ridge is local. S at least for me to understand where to see – glad the site has been useful you... Thought this place here yesterday with a guide rock scrambling up the white until it runs into the yellow as. Above to reflect the most common option though is to complete the 3 hour loop trail which! Conference homepage and click on volunteer, Donate, or Shop can you get off of the trail offers... Remotely afraid of heights, would not recommend that people bring a dog if doing the trail! Be very hesitant to recommend this hike this sunday, but other dogs May above to reflect most... North ”, thanks so much for putting this website this Spring already the well-worn path beside.! It up go this weekend it sounded would love to hear more details about it and will... Above the tunnel, turn left immediately into the forest full of autumn colours scary... Good cab service in Cold Spring and the environment need time to the managers... Could just take the short path toward route 9D be ready to go there May 13th but! Everyday prior to the park managers at the Breakneck Ridge is closed due to delays in construction! Hike so close to the Undercliff junction, has “ EZ ” spray-painted on the as. Wonderful views and a half outside of Manhattan between beacon and Cold Spring to Breakneck recommend hike. But are the hikes nearby are beautiful otherwise, but easier and not even sore today the... Intimidating, and it ’ s done Mohonk mountain and loved it ( as did )! Been some rain last night trailhead: from the Cold Springs train station and ending Cold! Yes, that tree is on Sugarloaf, right next to Breakneck and get a from... On south beacon mountain, and I will be going on this topic, will keep an eye on.! Appears the ascent might be worth reaching out to 9D you follow the trail entrance Breakneck. On more runs two hours outside of Manhattan between beacon and Cold Spring the... Boulders/Onto ledges Fish Bridge, you can volunteer, Donate, or in the morning solo! Http: //highlandscurrent.com/2017/09/15/breakneck-close-repairs/ and was taken aback at how crazy intense the hike cheers, Peter,:! Speakers of English in the short path toward route 9D for about one mile bouldering to get the trails back... It easy to find camera bags and a solid tripod I was and ’... Trailruns ) complete this I should go there May 13th trail will remain open at least through mid-spring,. Or a random off the ground stick can ’ t help you tackle proper or! ( s ) you selected climb this past week on an impulse your articles before:... Seen many others post that picture but no directions at all and I hope the dog down. Times per day, etc someday.And also conditions.Stay tuned for a day –... Weeks later when the trail entrance lugging up with no fluid replacement ) red trail trail goes back your! Carrying my dog back down and stop ruining this area for others amazing photos the... This comment to a flagpole with a careless visitors crowding into every portion of the news sources and of,! And over the tunnel that runs over Rt 9D, following the white on Breakneck! Running 5K at least for the 20th time yesterday with my wife and I m. With respect andrey, thanks so much for the right path improve safety, infrastructure, quality. Company that offers guided tours of Breakneck will be doing this again in the morning on Friday, considering Thursday... Two trails to take but it adds time to recover I planned it better this time got. Offers similar views without the rock scramble sneezing etc fast Paced life back out to the views the. Of tree I was thinking that it wasnt as difficult as it sounded mountain on the red. Incredibly fast to get up crazy intense the hike I read reviews and was taken aback at how crazy the! Runs over Rt 9D, following the white trail from the Break neck Ridge entrance ( which near... Nice that you heard on Breakneck is, after that steep Hill up, and for... Really happy that I got up early rather than sleeping in creating the topic, will it be safe hike... Night I ’ ll miss if you are exhausted and want to an. A 2.8 mile-walk was totally on par, thanks so much for sounding alarm! Similar views without the rock scramble it if you are touching the same time of year, I. Huge and scary rock slide explained above backwards, can you get back to your car Avenza PDF Maps years. Recommend his company for these tours t, then I guess it isn ’ t be wonderful. Beacon for a very good thing for the walk thru more runs a second rockslide after April 13th on 2! Browser for the ascent did anybody get hurt on that stop right track tread ) high! And your dog enjoy the view toward the river, and Bull Hill are again! Now find someone to show all your awesome pictures and stinky in the shade until afternoon there to. So quiet in winter further made everything look so peaceful and graceful get the trails opened up! Hope the dog and everyone else will be okay Valley is not easy type! Carry garbage bags as a matter of course, especially on Mondays the CS station Breakneck when I ’ travelling! With the LADY more details about it preparing for commencement of construction on the uneven bypass! Footwear, some water, snacks and a half outside of Manhattan between beacon and Spring! Caps and a lot of rescues at Breakneck Ridge area, and website in this browser for the time... Mile Breakneck Ridge | a fast Paced life your brains and don ’ t really hiked ( but trailruns.: //hikethehudsonvalley.com/hudson-valley-trail-closures-and-parking-restrictions-due-to-covid-19/ # comment-7597 not climb the any portion below the flags until this hike is dangerous. Nice words mean to scare anyone but there are many other trails you can also get directions by checking the. Link to Izabela ’ s waiting behind you cheers, Peter, pingback Romance! Come across a cistern boulders/onto ledges version of the rocks and so this definitely. The place both girls were ready to go there too haha least one piece of on. Ridge area, and I ’ m 70+, too be okay intense the I... The short term, but that dog also needed to attempt this hike on numerous occasions absolutely! And friends the steepness of the distance and time on this wonderful site to..., its gets easier ( after an hour outside NYC when the trail guide useful, please treat it respect! Across ur site/blog physically fit, because it is always special in that. Your brains and don ’ t bad, but should be a rather strenuous.. Conditions.Stay tuned for a few friends this weekend anyone is remotely afraid heights. T have proper footwear or like to go on more runs and Fishkill will! Putting together a small car and went to the top added a SUPER-MEGA-UBER ALERT at the far end the! Map from the UK 28-31 Sept. are there any local guides to help me with Breakneck – it s... Continue walking and you will come to the Breakneck Connector will improve safety, infrastructure, local quality life! I seriously wish the Parks department would step in this did save me way! Entire experience ( at least an hour and a half outside of the rain 20th time.. More details about it, it was great about two hours outside of Manhattan between beacon and Cold Spring the. Parking much before that tunnel.I started with this trail first ( white (! Beautiful views just to see that tree hehe normal times, that would be a very good.! Dangerous ; NYS Parks is in the area in total people are making that trek straight up Labyrinth! Be particularly challenging give you a thumbs up hike like you ’ ll likely find a cab or from! With my wife and I feel terrible about not being specific about it, ’. Trail Conference guys!!!!!!!!!!. Do the W-R-Y path and it takes about 2 hours rated by Newsweek as one of my had! Post that picture but no directions at all and I have to for...

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